Second Date Update 2.0

Bike Guy emailed me that night to accept my Saturday night invitation, so all my anxiety-riddled overthinking was for naught. Of course. And now, I'm nervous about The Third Date.

One of the purposes of this blog is to be completely honest about my own processes and issues with dating. Perhaps it seems silly for me to vent about the crazy workings of my mind, but I thought, in some small way, it would be useful for others to have a window into what one person goes through. So, it's partly therapeutic for me to articulate what I'm thinking and feeling, and hopefully it's partly informational about what goes on behind the scenes, before and after the actual public date.

And I guess I'll keep blogging as long as I still have something JDate-related to blog about!

Closure: Part 3 of ?: Second Date Update

I met Bike Guy for date #2 last night. I was looking forward to it because I enjoyed talking with him the first time, and felt relaxed with the pace and the content of our conversations. I was nervous, though, because I thought this date might determine whether I would like him too much or not at all.

We agreed via email to meet in my town at a local outdoor patio for a drink before deciding where to go for dinner. The place I picked out was closed due to the potential for inclement weather, so when Bike Guy arrived (he called at exactly our appointed meeting time to say he'd be 7 minutes late--precise and polite!) we went to an alternate outdoor patio for a beer. I found myself relaxing after my initial nervousness, perhaps due to a beer on an empty stomach. We talked about some of our mutual interests, and then decided to find an interesting restaurant for dinner. We talked more about dating expectations in general, and some of our dating expectations in particular. He's pretty laid back about dating--he's not looking to get married right now, but is interested in meeting new people and seeing what happens. We talked about the rules of dating; what are they, should there be any, and how do you learn what they are? Bike Guy said there shouldn't be rules, because one set of rules can't apply to every person and every situation. I argued the opposite: there should be rules because if you standardize the process and the expectations, everyone knows how to play the game. I do see his point of view, and actually, I think it's a better approach to life, but I think that if there are rules, and if you follow the rules, it makes whatever it is you're trying to do easier. I told him, as an example, when we went out last time, I was surprised that he asked to see me again at the end of the date, because according to the rules, you're supposed to wait a certain amount of time (there's some disagreement on what is the "appropriate" length of time to wait) before talking to your date again. I said that I was glad he asked me at the end of the date, because it felt natural. He said he didn't even know there were rules about that.

After dinner, we found a place to have ice cream, and then we took a long walk through the downtown area. We finally ended up at our original meeting site for a nightcap. I was getting tired, but I was enjoying myself because the conversation was so free-flowing. I think Bike Guy got tired too, because shortly after midnight he said he had to get going. He dropped me off at my apartment (I had walked to our meeting spot). I said I had a good time, he said he did too, and he said "I'll talk to you" and drove away.

So. I've been thinking about the evening. I had a really good time and I'd like to go out again and keep getting to know him. I like his relaxed approach to dating and the fact that he knows himself well enough to know that he's not looking for a marriageable partner right now. I feel the same way about myself: I'm not necessarily looking to get married right now, so I'd rather focus on spending time with people with whom I have a good time, am attracted, and have things in common. I really like the intellectual connection we have, our ability to talk about anything and everything. I give him a lot of credit--I think he's good at facilitating conversations and reading people, so the free-flowing conversational is not completely natural, it's the result of hard work on his part (and hopefully I'm holding up my end of the conversational bargain.) He said he's looking for a date and/or an activity partner (choic es provided by the JDate profile mechanism), and I think that's compatible with my choices of a date and/or a long-term relationship. I didn't choose "activity partner" because it sounded a little dirty, but I do want to be able to do "activities", dirty and otherwise, with my date/long-term relationship once or if it gets to that point.

But, now as I reflect on all the things I said, I wonder what he's thinking about me. I feel like I confessed to a lot of insecurities and weaknesses during our conversations, and I had a hard time articulating exactly what it was that I wanted from my JDate experience. I hope my inability to express the variety of conflicting wants and needs didn't come across as flighty or as wishy-washy. I would like to end up dating just one person, but I also want the flexibility to be able to keep my commitment casual, at least for now.

Yes, I overanalyze. It's part of my personality, and it's also required for what I do for a living. I think it's wiser not to overthink every little thing that was said or done or hinted at in body language or is in between the lines in an email message, but I do it anyway. I tell myself "it makes no sense to try to guess what he meant by 'talk to you'" but I wonder about it anyway. What does it mean if he doesn't email me today? Or if he does? Is it possible for two people to date if one overanalyzes and the other doesn't? I realized, upon reflection this morning, that I don't handle uncertainty well, and this is why I'm tempted by rules. And dating is all about uncertainty.

I also realize, as a result of my overanalytical reflection, that an intellectual connection is really important to me and a high priority on my list of desired characteristics in a partner. Though SMcG and I can easily talk about things, we don't have the same interest in intellectual pursuits as Bike Guy and I seem to have. Another valuable lesson learned as a result of dating.

So, I confess to you, readers, that I emailed Bike Guy this morning, saying I had a good time and suggested an activity for this Saturday evening. And now I play the mind games with myself--did I defy the convention of letting the man contact me and suggest another meeting? Was I right to go with my instinct? Am I asking for too much (2 dates in a week), too soon (according to my own standards)? How upset will I be if he doesn't want to get together again? Again, the uncertainty of having my proposition out there and not knowing what his response will be is a little anxiety-producing. I know it's all in my head, but that doesn't prevent me from worrying. Whatever the outcome, it will all be fine.

I think I'm a little intimidated by his ability to be casual in conversation and in his approach to dating. I wish I were able to be more casual and relaxed. I do think dating is good practice in becoming accustomed to being flexible and relaxing my own expectations. But I'm still hoping Bike Guy responds positively to my email sooner rather than later.

Closure: Part 2 of ?: Are we there yet?

Just a wee pre-weekend update:

I set the friendship boundaries with SMcG. I think he is such a good person, and I'm glad he can handle being friends. I feel immensely better having settled the matter (at least in my own mind). SMcG, in addition to other (non-Jewish) people to whom I tried to explain this (you know who you are!), still doesn't get the somewhat ambiguous but important religious factor. But we are able to play our sports as friends, and I'm so glad for that.

Received a follow-up email from Funny Guy, promising friendship and asking to get together again. I'm definitely up for friendship, so I'm holding off on replying to his email so that I transmit the "just friends" vibe.

Received a follow-up email from Bike Guy, reiterating that he had a good time and that he was looking forward to our next meeting. I sent a reply back, saying I had a good time too, and included some links to stuff we'd talked about, and proposed getting together on Tuesday. He replied again, so I sent another message indicating I was trying to come up with something creative for our next meeting, and wanted to know what time he'd be free in the evening. I haven't heard back from him in almost 48 hours. Now, I'm not saying this delay is unreasonable, I guess I'm just a little disappointed--I wanted to trade a few more emails between now and then. And of course, part of me is thinking the worst, like oh no, I scared him off with trying to be creative! I didn't ask enough questions! I didn't respond to something he said! And then another part of me is kind of relieved that he's not responding right away because that means he's not too into me. Or is he trying to transmit the "just friends" message? It's all kinds of crazy up in here.

He responded with a nice and witty email confirming a time for Tuesday. Heh.

Closure: Part 1 of ?

Yesterday was Double-Date Monday. I had lunch with Funny Guy and coffee/dinner with Bike Guy. Which felt weird: as someone who rarely goes out on dates, having two in one day was a completely new phenomenon. I barely had time to be nervous, because I was rushing from one place to another all day. I think it actually helped me relax, because I had no pre-planned conversation topics, and I had no time to worry about remembering the details of previous phone and/or email conversations I had with each of them, and I just went with the flow.

I met Funny Guy at a Jewish deli, where he was chatting with the owner as I came in. He introduced me to the owner, and as we contemplated the menu, told me all about the history of the area and the restaurant and the owner. This guy is totally hooked in to the community. We left it that I would consider getting involved with the local Jewish social event committee. It was a very pleasant meal--no sparks, but I like him as a person and he has the connections to the Jewish community that could help me break in.

I met Bike Guy at a coffee shop in his town, which was on my way home from work. I got there early, and sat facing the front door, hoping I'd recognize him when he came in, but he entered the coffee shop from the rear, and sort of snuck up on me. He's cute, and he looked like his picture, so I was relieved. I immediately liked him--his gaze was very warm, as if we were friends already. I don't know how to describe it exactly, but I felt at ease. We talked a lot about biking. A lot. We probably spent two hours in the coffee shop, and then we took a long walk, and the majority of the conversation was about biking. We did talk about other stuff--he asked me lots of questions about my work and my experiences, and I felt like I wasn't reciprocating, so I tried to hold up my end of the conversational bargain. He's articulate and expressive and we were able to connect on an intellectual level, which is definitely important to me. After a bathroom break at the three-plus-hour mark, we decided to get dinner. Dinner topics included politics and religion and technology and travel, and it all went very well. I like to get the big issues out of the way first, so there are fewer surprises later. At the end of the evening, Bike Guy said he had fun and he'd like to get together again, and I said I'd like to do that too. This weekend is already filled up for me, so I suggested we email each other this week and plan for something early next week. This morning, reflecting back on last night, I definitely want to see him again, even though I don't know exactly what I want out of this. Which is new territory for me.

Somehow, conversations with both guys turned to the process and experience of JDating. Both had a fairly laid-back philosophy--you try to meet people and see what happens. I agree with this approach! I think it's much more healthy than investing too much time and energy hoping and/or expecting. This way, you get to know people as people, unique as they may be, as opposed to thinking, "well, he's a great candidate but his teeth aren't perfect/he doesn't volunteer at a children's hospital/his parents are divorced/whatever". I'm left wondering, though, how do you evaluate a date? How do you know what comes next, or what you want? How long does it take to figure it out? Prior to applying the laid-back approach, I would try to schedule another date soon--a real date, like a Friday or Saturday night out. But using the laid-back approach, how do you know how long you need to get to know someone; how many casual cups of coffee? How do you like someone but keep your expectations low?

I'm still trying to figure out what I want with SMcG. I enjoy his company, and I enjoy the activities we do together, but I don't want our lives to get entangled. I realized that this has happened to me with previous relationships: you like someone, and you start to integrate them into all of *your* hobbies and activities and free time, and then suddenly, you're spending all your time together and you have no space and you don't even know this person. So, I'm hesitant to spend too much time with SMcG, because we're still getting to know each other. I am oscillating between thinking maybe we could date casually and thinking it's better not to even start anything because I know it's not going to go anywhere. I worry, though, about spending time with him *and* others, because it seems like it could get complicated quickly and people could get hurt.

I have more questions at the end of this process than I did at the beginning. I feel like I'm starting from scratch with my own expectations. More on this later.

Day 30

I'm in the process of composing some "lessons learned" from my month-long experience. I need some time to get my thoughts together, and I also have two remaining "dates" to go on, so I guess I can legitimately continue to blog for a few more days. Thanks for all the great comments! It's been really helpful to hear that others identify with me. Stay tuned...

Days 28 and 29

I talked on the phone with Bike Guy. It was a good conversation, but I was really tired and I wasn't expressing myself well. We have vague plans to talk on the phone again this week. While we were talking, the subject of belonging to a temple came up, so I mentioned how my mother is very active in her community. Just saying a simple sentence like "she teaches crafts related to the Jewish calendar" and having the other person understand without having to explain anything was such a relief. *This* is why I want to date someone Jewish.

So, this made me very apprehensive for my date with SMcG. In addition to his not being Jewish, I feel like we are worlds apart in our everyday experiences. We talked over dinner about politics and religion--two big no-nos for dates!. I brought up politics, briefly, because I just wanted to feel out where he stood. I got the sense that he's sort of middle of the road, and I lean left, so we're not too far apart, but we couldn't really talk about it. And religion came up, and I tried to explain why being Jewish is important to me, even though I don't actively practice, but I was just so tired of trying to explain it. I felt like crying out of frustration. Not a good feeling for a date.

The date was good overall. I enjoy hanging out with him, and I am attracted to him, but just *know*, on some deep level, that this relationship can't/won't go anywhere, because for me, the Jewish thing, the political thing, and the worlds apart thing are major. And I'm really stressed out by this. I don't know what to do. I'm so stressed out that I cancelled/rescheduled my lunch with Funny Guy because I just can't handle another stressful event today. And now I'm reevaluating my previous stance on why being friends first is a better way to ensure good dates, because I want to be friends with SMcG, but I don't think I can date him, and I don't know how to "break up" with him after one real date, because I'm afraid we'll lose the friendship.

This, my friends, is why I hate dating. And, I cancelled my JDate subscription today too.

Days 26 and 27

To explain my reference in the previous post: In the movie Fiddler on the Roof, Tevye is wrestling with his daughters' marriage choices. For his eldest daughter, he was able to talk himself into allowing her to marry the tailor, her love, instead of the butcher, a much more financially stable option. For the next daughter, he was able to talk himself into allowing her to marry a teacher from a village far away. The next daughter fell in love with a man who was not Jewish, and Tevye was not able to talk himself into allowing that marriage. For him, there was no "other hand" to balance the fact that his daughter's choice was not of the same faith.

I was just using this example to demonstrate that all Jews would be familiar with this movie and the reference, but this example didn't empirically hold up. I think you all get my drift though.

Anyway. There is an interesting series of conversations in the comments on Hilary's and JDatersAnonymous' blogs: debates about when you *know* if there's chemistry between you and your date, and whether you can be friends with someone you meet via online dating if there is no chemistry.

How many dates is too many to handle? Four. I am supposed to call Bike Guy tonight, I have an actual date with SMcG tomorrow, I have a lunch date with Funny Guy scheduled for Wednesday, and I gave my personal email to Shy Guy. I'm a little stressed over managing multiple people and multiple forms of communication (in-person, phone, and email conversations).

SMcG asked me out last night on a real date. We had dinner after our last league game of the season, and then he showed me some apartments he's renovating. As I was getting ready to go home, he told me that when we were watching fireworks for the 4th, he wanted to ask me out but he didn't know if it would be awkward. So would I have said yes if he asked me out? I said, "yes, I would have said yes." He said, "so would you like to go out on a real date?" I said yes. Dorkily, I told him that I wasn't sure if he actually saw me as a girl, since we usually just hung out before/during/after sporting activities and I was usually wearing sweaty clothes and cleats. He said, sweetly, that there were four times that he specifically noticed that I was a girl. First, when we went to meet up with friends of his for dinner, he wanted to tell me how nice I looked. Second, when we were playing soccer and he wanted to tackle me. Third, when we went out to dinner on the 4th, he wanted to sit next to me instead of across from me. And fourth, again, during the fireworks.

It's funny to me that SMcG is making the distinction between date and not-date, whereas I (and I like a nice dichotomy) was taking a let's-see-where-this-goes approach to hanging out. I figured the "are we dating?" question would come up at some point. I think it was exacerbated by people asking us, "are you together?" when we showed up for our sporting events together.

I'll let you know how the date, the conversation, the lunch, and the email correspondence go.

Days 24 and 25

I found a surprise in my JDate inbox. I received an email from Shy Guy, one from the group I emailed about 10 days ago. I responded to his message, after combing through his profile, looking for something to generate some email questions. If we get a conversation going before my month expires, I'll give him my personal email address.

I've been thinking about why it's more appealing and easier to make friends "organically" or "the old fashioned way" than to meet people online. Online, you choose your criteria: you pick the ideal age range, height parameters, education levels, even hair and eye color. Maybe we think we've selected a perfect mate because we've input our criteria and the online matching technology tells us that these people are right for us. And then you meet, and you hope this person is perfect in person, because they meet all, or most, or even a few of your physical requirements. Compare this to meeting people who become your friends. You have no control over any of their physical attributes; you just accept them for who they are, because you enjoy their company, because you "click" in person! We don't have many online friend finders, right? I know they're out there, but I don't think they're as widely socially accepted as online dating sites. And it's because we can't (or don't) order up friends the same way we order up dates. I'm saying *that's* the magic that I'm looking for in a date--the same chemistry that happens when we meet a complete stranger in a random encounter in a public place and find out that we have so much in common! It happens naturally if we're lucky, and the odds aren't good that it happens artificially through online matching.

I think this is somewhat related to the importance of being Jewish. I may not be practicing religion at this moment in my life, but finding someone who is Jewish means we have a somewhat common set of experiences and understandings. This is why I chose JDate as a means to meet people: one of my criteria would already be taken care of. It's hard to describe this to people who aren't Jewish. For the non-Jews out there, can you imagine trying to describe all the rituals surrounding your Easter celebration to someone who has no experience of Easter? Even if you aren't religious, you still probably spend some time with family, and there's a meal involved, and you have particular foods at this meal, and there are so many funny family stories related to these foods, and you and your family and your close friends all understand this without having to explain it. Now do the same thing with Christmas and Father's Day and all these other days that have this common thread through them. That's the key: you don't have to explain what any of these means to you, because most people of Christian/Catholic backgrounds have many of these elements in common. If I said "I went home for Passover and I thought I was going to starve before we actually had dinner", how many of you who aren't Jewish would know *exactly* what I meant? I guess what I'm trying to say is, sometimes being Jewish is like speaking a completely different language from almost everybody else, and when I think about the person I want to spend the rest of my life with, I'd like us to speak the same language. Or it's like getting an inside joke; it doesn't need to be explained because you just understand because you have all the context. Perhaps you disagree, and you don't see the Jewish/not Jewish distinction as a big deal, but sometimes it feels like a huge deal. I have only dated non-Jews (by circumstance, not by deliberate choice), and I thought I would try JDate as a way to make sure I would meet Jewish men. Perhaps ironically, I like someone who just doesn't happen to be Jewish more than the made-to-order Jewish men.

Take my soapbox, please!

So, I continue to wrestle with this issue. On the one hand, I have a great new male friend in front of me who isn't Jewish, and on the other hand, I have a few new Jewish male strangers who ostensibly meet my preferred criteria, but with whom I don't have the same connection as Sporty McGoy, or whatever we're calling him at the moment. On the other hand... there is no other hand! (Raise your hand if you get this fairly mainstream but old Jewish reference, and let me know if you *do* get it, or if you *don't* and you feel sort of like you're on the outside looking in.)

Days 21, 22, and 23

Whoa. Sorry 'bout the time between posts. Holiday weekend and all. I've been haing fun, and I'm currently out of town with intermittent internet access, which hopefully excuses my blog-absence. I think you'll forgive me the lapse once I get to the good stuff.

Seems like the more things I do in real life, the less time and interest I have in virtual life. I'm exchanging daily emails with Bike Guy, but I find that I'm not logging into JDate. I've been spending time with friends indulging in outdoorsy interests in the good weather. I love summer! Summer makes me more inclined to find romance, but this is also the best time of year to fully immerse myself in the sporty hobbies I favor. Perhaps ironically, I'm more likely to meet people during the summer sport season, but I chose to start JDate right when I was about to start getting outside of my own accord. My free evenings and weekends are filling up with group sport activities, and I find I'm looking forward to these much more than lining up prospective dates. How can I make these good times last throughout the year, so that I don't swing the other way in the winter months, with no group sport activities and no dates?

So. About a month ago, I met someone through Craigslist. He advertised in the platonic section, looking for women to play on a co-ed league. I responded to his ad, because I wanted to try this particular club sport. He went out of his way to make me feel welcome on the team, arranging to meet me before the first game so he could introduce me to the other members of the team, and we just hit it off. Since he recruited me, I recruited him back for another league sport, and we found that we had tons of interests in common, so we've started spending more time together before and after our games. At first I thought I wasn't attracted to him, but now I have a little crush on him, so I'm really enjoying how our friendship is developing and I'm looking forward to the times we spend together. He is, of course, not Jewish. But he needs a nickname for this blog so I can continue to talk about him. Suggestions?

Days 19 and 20

Things are a little slow around here, which I'm attributing to the holiday weekend and to the fact that my interest is starting to fade 3 weeks into this 4-week experience.

I received a very sweet "I like you, do you like me back?" type of email from B. I replied that I didn't feel a romantic connection, but I liked him very much, thought he was sweet/cute/smart. He responded that he appreciated my honesty. I'm glad our exchange was civil. I do wish I could figure out what that little magic element is, and how it boils down into someone's profile, so that I (and I would share this information with the world!) could better predict whether I will like someone in that special way, even if they meet all the other cute/smart type criteria.

Funny Guy asked to meet after our respective schedules calm down next week, so I suggested lunch, as we work relatively near each other.

Bike Guy and I are exchanging daily emails.

I received an email the other day from someone new -- PhD Guy. The email was writtern pretty well, as was the profile. He (obvs) has an advanced degree, which is great, 'cause I like smarts, and he has lived in a few places that I have lived, but I just don't feel like replying to his message. His pictures are just okay. I wonder if this is the same process that the-people-I-wrote-to-who-didn't-respond go through? I don't want to reject him outright, because I'm still thinking about replying, even if it has been a few days, but I haven't been able to bring myself to start up a conversation, and I don't know why. Am I just tired? Or do I have a good gut reaction to the profile (thanks, but no thanks?)? Or am I ruling him out based on his photos? I'm sort of stalling for time.

I do check JDate daily, just to keep myself active so that my profile will appear towards the top of the list. I've been noticing profiles that come up in my searches with names like "not looking" and "this is a waste of 35 bucks." So, if you're "not looking" and already have a bad attitude, why bother? I wonder if profiles like these get any responses. Also the ones with fake pictures--you know the ones I mean? Pictures that are clearly don't represent the person?

I spend a lot of time reading blogs, and in an unscientific study, I've come across several where people have read each others' posts, started a conversation via commenting, fell in love, met in person, and are blogging happily ever after. Is this online dating 2.0? Is blogging the new JDating?